KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1)

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 02 July 2000 22:31:51:
The first round in my winboard tournament has come to an end. The results somewhat differ with my expectation:
1)Amy 0.7 - Yace 0.20 (0-1)
2)AnMon 5.09 - SOS 991103 (0-1)
3)Comet B23 - The Crazy Bishop 0045 (0-1)
4)Crafty 17.11 - Gromit 3.0 (0-1)
[Event "KUT_O2 P3/650 32 HT PB=off 60/60'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Crafty 17.11"]
[Black "Gromit 3.0"]
[Result "0-1"]
[PlyCount "131"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Nf3 Ne7 8. a4
b6 9. Bb5+ Bd7 10. Bd3 Nbc6 11. O-O h6 12. Re1 O-O {last book move} 13. Ba3 {
last book move} 13... c4 14. Be2 Qc8 15. Nh4 Re8 16. Qd2 Qa6 17. Ra2 Nc8 18.
Rea1 N8e7 19. Qf4 Qa5 20. Qg3 Reb8 21. h3 Rb7 22. Bc1 Kh8 23. Bh5 Rf8 24. Ba3
Kg8 25. Rb1 Kh8 26. Raa1 Kg8 27. Bd6 Rd8 28. Ba3 Rf8 29. Bd6 Rd8 30. Ra2 Be8
31. Ba3 Kh7 32. Bg4 Kg8 33. Bc1 Rbb8 34. Raa1 Kh8 35. Qe3 Kg8 36. Qg3 Kh8 37.
Qe3 Kg8 38. Ba3 Rb7 39. Bh5 g5 40. Bb4 Qa6 41. Nf3 Nf5 42. Qe2 Rc8 43. Nh2 Nxb4
44. Rxb4 Kh8 45. f4 b5 46. fxg5 bxa4 47. gxh6 Rxb4 48. cxb4 Qb6 49. c3 Nxd4 50.
Qf2 Nb3 51. Ra2 Qxf2+ 52. Kxf2 d4 53. Be2 dxc3 54. Ke3 Bc6 55. g4 Rd8 56. Nf1
Rd3+ 57. Bxd3 cxd3 58. Kxd3 Nc1+ 59. Kd4 Nxa2 60. Ne3 Bf3 61. b5 Be2 62. Nc2
Bxb5 63. Ke3 Bf1 64. h4 Bh3 65. Kf4 Kh7 66. Kf3 {White resigns} 0-1

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 02 July 2000 22:45:39:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 02 July 2000 22:31:51:

The first round in my winboard tournament has come to an end. The results somewhat differ with my expectation:
1)Amy 0.7 - Yace 0.20 (0-1)
2)AnMon 5.09 - SOS 991103 (0-1)
3)Comet B23 - The Crazy Bishop 0045 (0-1)
4)Crafty 17.11 - Gromit 3.0 (0-1)
[Event "KUT_O2 P3/650 32 HT PB=off 60/60'"]

A couple of surprising results, but they're very close so that can happen. BTW, what books are Amy and Yace using, or what kind of pgn-file did you use?
Best wishes...
Mogens
PS: Thank you for signing my Guestbook.

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 02 July 2000 23:01:27:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 02 July 2000 22:45:39:

The first round in my winboard tournament has come to an end. The results somewhat differ with my expectation:
1)Amy 0.7 - Yace 0.20 (0-1)
2)AnMon 5.09 - SOS 991103 (0-1)
3)Comet B23 - The Crazy Bishop 0045 (0-1)
4)Crafty 17.11 - Gromit 3.0 (0-1)
[Event "KUT_O2 P3/650 32 HT PB=off 60/60'"]

A couple of surprising results, but they're very close so that can happen. BTW, what books are Amy and Yace using, or what kind of pgn-file did you use?
Best wishes...
Mogens
PS: Thank you for signing my Guestbook.

Reply to Mogens:
I'm using the "normal" books for Amy and Yace. You have created special books I think but I like letting play programs with their original "outfits".
Best wishes
Kurt

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 08:56:13:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 02 July 2000 23:01:27:

The first round in my winboard tournament has come to an end. The results somewhat differ with my expectation:
1)Amy 0.7 - Yace 0.20 (0-1)
2)AnMon 5.09 - SOS 991103 (0-1)
3)Comet B23 - The Crazy Bishop 0045 (0-1)
4)Crafty 17.11 - Gromit 3.0 (0-1)
[Event "KUT_O2 P3/650 32 HT PB=off 60/60'"]

A couple of surprising results, but they're very close so that can happen.
BTW, what books are Amy and Yace using, or what kind of pgn-file did you use?
Mogens

Reply to Mogens:
I'm using the "normal" books for Amy and Yace. You have created special books >I think but I like letting play programs with their original "outfits".

My understanding is that Yace and Amy don't really have any "normal" opening books..By normal I mean, a specially tailored opening book provided by the author of the program..
Most people use the opening book that results from Dann Corbit's 2600.pgn file for amy and YAce though..
So Mogen's Question is quite interesting.
Also since Yace and Amy don't have any book learning, I suppose, someone who had enough games could help make the "normal" opening book better..By cutting out lines that Yace or Amy don't play well..

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 10:27:25:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 08:56:13:

Also since Yace and Amy don't have any book learning, I suppose, someone who had enough games could help make the "normal" opening book better..By cutting out lines that Yace or Amy don't play well..

There's another similar solution, which Dieter is working on at the moment. I don't think I should be the one to reveal some of the details, so I'll leave the explaining to Dieter when he believe it works.
You can make sure that Amy don't play certain lines, but if they're rare it/she won't play them anyway. It's all about balancing probabilities, so the tweaking process is very time consuming and it varies according to booksize.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 10:39:49:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 10:27:25:

Also since Yace and Amy don't have any book learning, I suppose, someone who >>had enough games could help make the "normal" opening book better..By cutting >>out lines that Yace or Amy don't play well..

There's another similar solution, which Dieter is working on at the moment.

Besides a auto book learning feature, I'm not sure what other solution there is..
Also Anyway, yesterday I had 2 repeat games at G/30 between Yace and Crafty , it was a interesting game that ended in a draw, where Yace had a Rook vers Crafty's 4 pawns..

I'm also beginning to wonder if the book made out of p2600.pgn is a good book. Since it is lacking in quite a few opening lines..Probably because GMs just don't play certain lines..
In the current G/75 game ,Yace vers Crafty , Yace was out of book after
1 e4 e5
2 Nf3 Nc6
3 Bc4 Bc5
4 b4 Bxb4
5)c3 Ba4
6)d4 exd4 (and Yace is out of book)
and here yace played 7 Nxd4 which I think isclearly inferior..7 0-0 is the only move..
Clearly Crafty is going to win this one..
Perhaps I should make a book with the same file that you can use to make crafty's book..

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 10:52:46:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 10:39:49:

I'm also beginning to wonder if the book made out of p2600.pgn is a good book. Since it is lacking in quite a few opening lines..Probably because GMs just don't play certain lines..
Perhaps I should make a book with the same file that you can use to make crafty's book..

A book made using 2600.pgn isn't good, it's too narrow as you say. The book used with my experimental tournament is based on that and I foresee problems for Amy and Yace. Amy lost 4-0 to Zchess and Yace is about to lose the second game in a row against Bringer and then the score would be 0-2. Incidentally, Bringer uses the same book with the same depth.
Please do, and post your experiences. I'm currently trying to expand my pgnbase carefully. I'm approaching 60000 games, but there's a lot of doubles I think.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 11:29:16:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 10:52:46:

A book made using 2600.pgn isn't good, it's too narrow as you say. The book >used with my experimental tournament is based on that and I foresee problems >for Amy and Yace.
Amy lost 4-0 to Zchess
and Yace is about to lose the second game in a row against Bringer and then >the score would be 0-2. Incidentally, Bringer uses the same book with the same >depth.

Perhaps I should make a book with the same file that you can use to make >crafty's book..

Please do, and post your experiences.
I'm currently trying to expand my pgnbase carefully. I'm approaching 60000 >games, but there's a lot of doubles I think.

Well you didn't state that it was due to opening or anything..
Or are the games doubles?

But if I understand you correctly, all engines use the same book..So, this probably means that the book suits Zchess better? Anyway the result is only a little surprising..

Again the result is a minor surprise..Just to clarify, Are you blaming Yace and Amy's poor result on the narrow book?
Since, all engines get the same book, we can only say that Bringer and Zchess adapt better from the end positions of the book..
This is assuming that their losses can be traced more or less to the opening..(I'll be interested in seeing the games)

Finally, what is the point of your tournament, by making all the engines play using the same book?
If we get "upsets" can we say that Bringer and Zchess are better suited to use the 2600.pgn books?
Or if the results are almost as expected, you can see that the book is "netural"
?
Similarly, I'm curious about the point of the other tournament, running only engines that use Nalimov tbs..But that's another thread..

My guess is that such a book would be better . Currently, the 2600.pgn games has certain curious gaps..
I can't imagine a human daring to play the Evans Gambit can gets totally suprised by his opponent's common 6th move!
Of course, Yace might not "like" the opening position that result from the main line after the 10th-15th move, but that's another story..
So I'll try it..If I can find the file..
What you need to do I think is this. complie the opening book..And get a few people well versed in opening theory to try out the book in various opening lines..
You don't need very expert players, at the very worse, get some opening bible to check..

If the engine is out of book even after very common opening moves (and goes on to play "weak" moves), it means that you need to collect more games for that certain variation..
The problem as you know with collecting only 2600 player games is that some lines are not represented..
Like I suspect the 2600.pgn games has only 1 or 2 games with the Evan gambit where Black prefered 6...d6 or Bb6 instead of exd4, altough all are playable..and considered normal..
There's no way we can match commerical books but course, but when the engine is out of book by the 6th move in a normal opening variation, I'm very sad...

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 12:08:10:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 11:29:16:

Amy lost 4-0 to Zchess

Well you didn't state that it was due to opening or anything..
Or are the games doubles?
But if I understand you correctly, all engines use the same book..So, this probably means that the book suits Zchess better? Anyway the result is only a little surprising..
Again the result is a minor surprise..Just to clarify, Are you blaming Yace and Amy's poor result on the narrow book?
Finally, what is the point of your tournament, by making all the engines play using the same book?
If we get "upsets" can we say that Bringer and Zchess are better suited to use the 2600.pgn books?
Or if the results are almost as expected, you can see that the book is "netural"
?
If the engine is out of book even after very common opening moves (and goes on to play "weak" moves), it means that you need to collect more games for that certain variation..
The problem as you know with collecting only 2600 player games is that some lines are not represented..

It was the same openings, but not complete doubles (Amy changed its mind at move 15 and 22 I think). Zchess har learning and a slightly deeper book (you can't determine depth) than Amy (used flatten 1).
Not all bookmakers used are similar. With some you can determine the number of ply, with others you can't. Try creating a book for Green Light Chess with 2600.pgn using the bookcreator.
Not in the Yace-Bringer match, because the conditions are similar. But the book differences I mentioned and the fact that some programs utilize book and/or position learning constitutes an advantage. If I turn learning off I'll just get a lot of duplicate games, which is uninteresting. So the experiment has two factors; learning and bookdepth. One too many you might say, but that's the way it is.
I'm not sure there's any point to the tournament as such, except to evaluate programs without advantages like Nalimov or specialized book. I'm hoping to get an impression of the strength of the new Zchess and Yace off course. Furthermore, I'm hoping to get some information about the learning implemented in various programs (Zchess seems to repeat winning moves). But mostly, it's for my own enjoyment as are everything else I do.
I'm collecting games by ECO, but some openings are weakly represented when it comes to the number of games.
Yes, I'm using 2400+ as my lower limit now and 2300+ in rare openings. Otherwise a broad book is a futile task.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 12:20:14:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 12:08:10:

Amy lost 4-0 to Zchess

Well you didn't state that it was due to opening or anything..
Or are the games doubles?
But if I understand you correctly, all engines use the same book..So, this >>probably means that the book suits Zchess better? Anyway the result is only a >>little surprising..
Again the result is a minor surprise..Just to clarify, Are you blaming Yace >>and Amy's poor result on the narrow book?
Finally, what is the point of your tournament, by making all the engines play >>using the same book?

It was the same openings, but not complete doubles (Amy changed its mind at >move 15 and 22 I think). Zchess har learning and a slightly deeper book (you >can't determine depth) than Amy (used flatten 1).
Not all bookmakers used are similar. With some you can determine the number of >ply, with others you can't. Try creating a book for Green Light Chess with >2600.pgn using the bookcreator.
Not in the Yace-Bringer match, because the conditions are similar. But the >book differences I mentioned and the fact that some programs utilize book >and/or position learning constitutes an advantage. If I turn learning off I'll >just get a lot of duplicate games, which is uninteresting. So the experiment >has two factors; learning and bookdepth. One too many you might say, but >that's the way it is.
I'm hoping to get an impression of the strength of the new Zchess and Yace off >course. Furthermore, I'm hoping to get some information about the learning >implemented in various programs (Zchess seems to repeat winning moves).
I'm collecting games by ECO, but some openings are weakly represented when it >comes to the number of games.

I forgot about that..I have zero experience with making books up to now..But I think i will start trying them out now..

I'm not familar with the differences in book creation..But are the differences that great?


Yes that would be interesting to know..But if you really wanted to have a quick results to see how learning is implemented, perhaps lots of quick 5 min blitz games would be better..But i know you hate Blitz..

Good..I will download the bigger Yace book, you have put up..See if this book allows Yace to play the Evan's Gambit properly..And whether there are other holes..
I'm also looking at the games in 2600.pgn using chessbaselight and the large.zip files i downloaded from Crafty websites..
Those from the Crafty website are relatively old games 1989-1990, but they cover quite a wide range of openings..

[Dieter Buerssner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Buerssner at 03 July 2000 12:23:59:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 10:39:49:

There's another similar solution, which Dieter is working on at the moment.

Besides a auto book learning feature, I'm not sure what other solution there >is..
I'm also beginning to wonder if the book made out of p2600.pgn is a good book.
Since it is lacking in quite a few opening lines..Probably because GMs just
don't play certain lines..

Book learning will be delayed, until the Tour de France is over ...
Currently, I am storing some flags in the book, that can be set by the user.
Something like
1. e4 f4?
(I parse ??, ?, ?!, !?, !, !!)
The idea is, to append some lines to the book.pgn, that are marked like this.
Then the book move selection code would use these hints. (Everything
implemented since a long time besides the actual usage of the hints).
Please suggest better ideas.
I think, you are correct. But it should be easy, to create your own book. You
can download any of the PGN files available on the net and try it out. If
you are creating a book frequently, or intend to add lines frequently, just
write a file bookc.inp like
; Save some memory by disabling hash and table bases
; that may have been set in yace.ini
hash 0
tbldir nul
book_c book.pgn 100000 20
quit
And then at the command prompt:
yace < bookc.inp
I suspect, that a larger maxply than 20 might be good for Yace.
To add the lines, you were missing, just add them at the beginning
or at the end of the book *three* times. (If the move count is one,
Yace will not use it, if it is two, Yace will only use it, when it is the
only book move available).
I'd be very interested in your experience with different books.
Regards,
Dieter

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 12:33:34:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 12:20:14:

I'm not familar with the differences in book creation..But are the differences that great?
Good..I will download the bigger Yace book, you have put up..See if this book allows Yace to play the Evan's Gambit properly..And whether there are other holes..

Not in every opening. Sometimes it's good to get out of book early, because too much depth could result in a bad position for a computer program. Maybe depth is good in closed positions and bad in open positions, I don't know.
If we use the Evans gambit as an example: Would it be best if Yace started thinking at depth 10 or depth 15? I have no idea, but I'm leaning towards depth 15. What do you think?
That would be nice to know, because I'm in the process of gathering games for its replacement.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 12:58:18:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 12:33:34:

I'm not familar with the differences in book creation..But are the >>differences that great?

Not in every opening. Sometimes it's good to get out of book early, because >too much depth could result in a bad position for a computer program. Maybe >depth is good in closed positions and bad in open positions, I don't know.
If we use the Evans gambit as an example: Would it be best if Yace started >thinking at depth 10 or depth 15? I have no idea, but I'm leaning towards >depth 15. What do you think?

Perhaps..If you assume that the engines can play open positions perfectly well by itself..
But I think too much depth in closed position may be bad..
Sometimes, once out of book, you will see the program, making silly moves, wasting time rearranging it pieces (eg from Kingside back to queenside) because, it just doesn't understand, the reason behind the book moves..
So you get weird moves, where the computer following the book uses 3 moves bringing the Knight to the kingside, and once out of book it "decides" that the last few moves were stupid and bring the knight back..
I suppose, I used to have this experience as well, when memorising book moves..

My opinion is for gambit lines, Yace should be "guided" as long as possible..Computers just don't play Gambit lines well.So the answer is probably depth 15.
Taking the line I gave in the thread above..No computer will play the correct move 7 0-0 , for fear of giving up another pawn..But of course, with the hindsight of theory, we know that it is almost losing for Black to take the pawn..
And most importantly, the only way to follow up the gambit for white is to play 7 0-0! . Once past this point, I suppose most chess engines can figure out the rest..
Of course, they may still prefer their opponent's position..But despite this, some may still handle the position okay..Since tactical positions (except for deep positional sacs, which Evan gambits is one) is their forte anyway..

One question though , when you set the opening book to draw from depth 15, wouldn't that apply across all opening?. Unless you intend to cut short games which you don't want too much depth..

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 13:10:21:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Dieter Buerssner at 03 July 2000 12:23:59:

Book learning will be delayed, until the Tour de France is over ...
Currently, I am storing some flags in the book, that can be set by the user.
Something like
1. e4 f4?
(I parse ??, ?, ?!, !?, !, !!)
The idea is, to append some lines to the book.pgn, that are marked like this.
Then the book move selection code would use these hints. (Everything
implemented since a long time besides the actual usage of the hints).
Please suggest better ideas.
I think, you are correct. But it should be easy, to create your own book. You
can download any of the PGN files available on the net and try it out. If
you are creating a book frequently, or intend to add lines frequently, just
write a file bookc.inp like
And then at the command prompt:
yace bookc.inp
I suspect, that a larger maxply than 20 might be good for Yace.
To add the lines, you were missing, just add them at the beginning
or at the end of the book *three* times. (If the move count is one,
Yace will not use it, if it is two, Yace will only use it, when it is the
only book move available).
I'd be very interested in your experience with different books.

You are looking for simple ideas..This is good..


I'm sorry, I don't quite understand how you add lines to a book that already exist..
First - create a new file called bookc.inp

; Save some memory by disabling hash and table bases
; that may have been set in yace.ini
hash 0
tbldir nul
book_c book.pgn 100000 20
quit

Question: What is book.pgn? Is that the file with the lines that you want to add?

Question: What will this do? Copy the new lines into the book?

20 plies= 10 moves which is good enough for most opening. The game where Yace went wrong, was due to a lack of games since it went wrong merely 7 moves out..
I'm totally lost here..How do you add the new lines 3 times? Run Yace and bookc,inp another 3 times??
I'll play around with Morgen's new larger Yace book first..Probably add a few from crafty's book if I can see some wholes..

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 13:12:06:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: About openibg book creation geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 12:58:18:

One question though , when you set the opening book to draw from depth 15, wouldn't that apply across all opening?. Unless you intend to cut short games which you don't want too much depth..

Do you mean 15 ply or 15 moves? The depth 30 ply will apply for all the games reaching 15 moves or higher. But in a lot of variations the depth would be less, because not all variations are represented, e.g. your Evans gambit example. So if you got a thin pgnfile, increasing depth would only help in common lines.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 14:02:46:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: About openibg book creation geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 13:12:06:

One question though , when you set the opening book to draw from depth 15, >>wouldn't that apply across all opening?. Unless you intend to cut short games >>which you don't want too much depth..

Do you mean 15 ply or 15 moves? The depth 30 ply will apply for all the games >reaching 15 moves or higher.
But in a lot of variations the depth would be less, because not all variations >are represented, e.g. your Evans gambit example. So if you got a thin pgnfile, >increasing depth would only help in common lines.

Let's use ply.. I think 15 ply might be too little.20 is respectable..But of course 30 would be best...But I'm afraid the book will be too big..

Actually I thought by depth you meant moves..

My question is this..Isn't it pointless to ask if, you want the book to be of a certain length or ply or depth or move for a certain variation, since as I understand it, the setting depth/ply whatever is across the board..
For example..
if you decided that Evan gambit lines should be up to 15 ply, and Ruy lopez lines should be up to 20 ply, how could you do it??

I understand that. The currently failure to play Evans Gambit properly is due to lack of games not depth taken in..I assume the book on Dann Corbit's book is done up to 20 ply, so yace being out of book after move 7 , would strongly imply lack of games..

[Dieter Buerssner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Buerssner at 03 July 2000 14:21:30:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: KUT-O2 / game 4: Crafty1711 vs Gromit30 ( 0-1) geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 13:10:21:

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand how you add lines to a book that >already exist..
Question: What is book.pgn?
Is that the file with the lines that you want to add?

And then at the command prompt:
yace bookc.inp

Question: What will this do?
I'm totally lost here..How do you add the new lines 3 times?

Perhaps I was unclear. Just open the PGN file with your favorite
editor (Notepad won't work, because of its file size limitation).
Then type in the book lines. I'll give a more convenient method further
down.
Any PGN file, you want to use. The files distributed with Crafty
or the 2600.pgn from Dann Corbit's site will do. Just replace the name.
Yes
Actually, I meant
yace < bookc.inp
It will create a new binary book from the pgn file.
Ok. Slower and more convenient this time.
Create a file aaron.pgn. This file from now on, will have the lines
you are missing. aaron.pgn will look like this.
[Opening "Evan's Gambit"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O *
[Due to Yace's stupid book selection, you have to repeat this]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O *
[You can use this more compact format as well]
e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 Bc5 b4 Bxb4 c3 Ba5 d4 ed O-O
Also download 2600.pgn (or substitute the name with your favorite
opening moves collection)
Then create a file bookc.inp. It will look like this
; Use Operating system copy to append your lines to 2600.pgn
; Note, *no* space after the '!'
; Substitute 2600.pgn with any file you like
!copy /Y 2600.pgn+aaron.pgn book.pgn
; Save some memory, by disabling hash and EGTB
hash 0
tbldir nul
; Create the binary book from the pgn
; 30000 is sufficient for 2600.pgn and maxply = 20
; With a larger pgn file or a larger maxply, this number
; needs to be increased. You will see, when the book creation
; is very slow. Usually it should display a few .... per second.
; If this is not the case, hit Ctrl-C, increase this number and
; start again.
book_c book.pgn 30000 20
quit
Then at the DOS prompt type
yace < bookc.inp.
If you find another missing line, open aaron.pgn with your editor,
add it, and type the same command. Please send me the other lines,
you seem missing in 2600.pgn.
May sound complicated, but actually its easy, and when you tried it
once, you'll see, that it only take a minute to add a new book line.
BTW. I just exactly did this, and Yace played 7. 0-0
Regards,
Dieter

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 14:56:45:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: About openibg book creation geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 14:02:46:

My question is this..Isn't it pointless to ask if, you want the book to be of a certain length or ply or depth or move for a certain variation, since as I understand it, the setting depth/ply whatever is across the board..
For example..
if you decided that Evan gambit lines should be up to 15 ply, and Ruy lopez lines should be up to 20 ply, how could you do it??

You can't with the book creation possibilities I'm aware of. E.g. Crafty, Bringer and Yace use a set ply depth. I can't remember what the Little Goliath bookmaker does, but you can choose between strong and wide. Don't ask me about the exact difference, except that strong results in fewer positions. I used wider for my tournament due to the number of games.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 15:08:43:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: About openibg book creation geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 July 2000 14:56:45:

My question is this..Isn't it pointless to ask if, you want the book to be of >>a certain length or ply or depth or move for a certain variation, since as I >>understand it, the setting depth/ply whatever is across the board..
For example..
if you decided that Evan gambit lines should be up to 15 ply, and Ruy lopez >>lines should be up to 20 ply, how could you do it??

You can't with the book creation possibilities I'm aware of. E.g. Crafty, >Bringer and Yace use a set ply depth. I can't remember what the Little Goliath >bookmaker does, but you can choose between strong and wide. Don't ask me about >the exact difference, except that strong results in fewer positions. I used >wider for my tournament due to the number of games.

That's what I thought.
BTW i'm looking at your book you created for Yace..For a moment, it seemed that Yace as white played 1 Nf3 almost excusively, and sicilian as black..
At first, I did a few manual games to test out the lines. But this was very time consuming, since after every game I had to restart Winboard.
Apparantly, after resigning and then resetting the board, yace has problems restarting..
Perhaps I should try manually, the Amy book on your site..They are based on almost the same games right?? Of course I understand there are some differences in book creation..

[Dieter Buerssner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Buerssner at 03 July 2000 15:13:59:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: About openibg book creation geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 03 July 2000 15:08:43:

Apparantly, after resigning and then resetting the board, yace has problems
restarting..

Please start winboard with /debug and send me the winboard.deb and yace.log
when this happens. (I don't have your email address)
Regards,
Dieter