Yace oddities following a draw

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 12 June 2000 21:19:41:
Sometimes, after a draw, Yace does something weird like this:
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DCORBIT"]
[Date "2000.06.11"]
[Round "33"]
[White "Comet"]
[Black "Yace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "3600"]
1. e4 Rh8xd8
{Draw} 1/2-1/2
It does not happen after a win or a loss


My FTP site

[U.Türke]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: U.Türke at 12 June 2000 22:13:53:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 12 June 2000 21:19:41:

Sometimes, after a draw, Yace does something weird like this:
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DCORBIT"]
[Date "2000.06.11"]
[Round "33"]
[White "Comet"]
[Black "Yace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "3600"]
1. e4 Rh8xd8
{Draw} 1/2-1/2
It does not happen after a win or a loss

The move Rh8xd8 refers to the previous game. Winboard does not know this because it had already sent the "new" command.
Dieter, do you use
fflush(stdout)
after output of a move ?
If I am right, then your search is continuing until you receive the "new" command. In this case, it could help to use the "result" command, sent by winboard and indicating game-end in order to terminate the search earlier.
Just a guess,
Uli
BTW, Dieter, do you use
fflush(stdout)
after output of a move ?

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 13 June 2000 00:32:30:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 12 June 2000 21:19:41:

Sometimes, after a draw, Yace does something weird like this:
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DCORBIT"]
[Date "2000.06.11"]
[Round "33"]
[White "Comet"]
[Black "Yace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "3600"]
1. e4 Rh8xd8
{Draw} 1/2-1/2
It does not happen after a win or a loss

I've had the same problems, but using /-reuse /-reuse2 should solve everything. That's my experience anyway.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Pete Galati]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Pete Galati at 13 June 2000 00:37:41:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 13 June 2000 00:32:30:

Sometimes, after a draw, Yace does something weird like this:
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DCORBIT"]
[Date "2000.06.11"]
[Round "33"]
[White "Comet"]
[Black "Yace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "3600"]
1. e4 Rh8xd8
{Draw} 1/2-1/2
It does not happen after a win or a loss

I've had the same problems, but using /-reuse /-reuse2 should solve everything. That's my experience anyway.
Best wishes...
Mogens

Do you put /-reuse /-reuse2 in Winboard's command line? Also, if I want to play a second game against Yace, I have to restart Winboard, or else Yace won't use it's opening book on the second game. Does /-reuse /-reuse2 solve that problem too?
Pete

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 13 June 2000 07:39:58:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Pete Galati at 13 June 2000 00:37:41:

Sometimes, after a draw, Yace does something weird like this:
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DCORBIT"]
[Date "2000.06.11"]
[Round "33"]
[White "Comet"]
[Black "Yace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "3600"]
1. e4 Rh8xd8
{Draw} 1/2-1/2
It does not happen after a win or a loss

I've had the same problems, but using /-reuse /-reuse2 should solve everything. That's my experience anyway.
Best wishes...
Mogens

Do you put /-reuse /-reuse2 in Winboard's command line? Also, if I want to play a second game against Yace, I have to restart Winboard, or else Yace won't use it's opening book on the second game. Does /-reuse /-reuse2 solve that problem too?
Pete

I don't know if it solves that problem as well, but it might. The command /-reuse /-reuse is placed under additional options in the startup dialog box. It's used the same way as /mg and /debug, so no altering of WinBoard.ini.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Gábor szõts]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gábor szõts at 13 June 2000 09:32:34:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Pete Galati at 13 June 2000 00:37:41:

Do you put /-reuse /-reuse2 in Winboard's command line? Also, if I want to play a second game against Yace, I have to restart Winboard, or else Yace won't use it's opening book on the second game. Does /-reuse /-reuse2 solve that problem too?
Pete

If you want Yace play against another engine, you don't have to use /-reuse, it is enough to add /mg x.
If you play against Yace, /-reuse solves the book problem.
So if you automatically add /-reuse, you can play both engine-engine and human-engine matches.

[Dieter Bürßner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Bürßner at 13 June 2000 11:40:20:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw (mainly to Dieter) geschrieben von: / posted by: U.Türke at 12 June 2000 22:13:53:

Sometimes, after a draw, Yace does something weird like this:
[White "Comet"]
[Black "Yace"]
1. e4 Rh8xd8
{Draw} 1/2-1/2
It does not happen after a win or a loss

The move Rh8xd8 refers to the previous game. Winboard does not know this >because it had already sent the "new" command.
Dieter, do you use
fflush(stdout)
after output of a move ?
If I am right, then your search is continuing until you receive the "new"
command.
In this case, it could help to use the "result" command, sent by winboard and
indicating game-end in order to terminate the search earlier.

I think, I have found this bug. For the curious, I had an early exit
in the search, when only one move is possible. This exit was before the
drawing logic. Seems to be fixed now.
Yes, after any output the stream will be flushed.
It really is even more primitive. When I receive a move, Yace searches as long
as it finds suitable (or reports a Draw or Mate). Until now, Yace cannot
be interrupted from winboard. But this should be enough, when the
opponent either moves or sends an result (or mates and sends an result).
If it's a draw, Yace should detect it (with the exception of the bug
I mentioned earlier) and replies by 1/2 - 1/2 without sending a move.
When I receive the result command, I have already answered the last move ...
The fix I indicated won't solve the problems with Crafty. From an
answer to Dann:
I have analyzed a few such cases with Crafty. At least in those
cases, IHMO this was Crafty's fault. Crafty makes a move, and then
claims draw by 3-fold repetition. Due to my understanding of the
chess rules, this is not allowed. (Please correct me, if I am wrong.)
Also, I think making a move and then resigning or claiming a draw, is
somewhat against (my very terse and new understanding) of the spirit
of the winboard protocol. By this spirit, I mean, that winboard
allows the engine to process the commands like a queue. When Crafty
sends a move, Yace will receive it and process it. Crafty immediately
after this sends a result (resign or draw). But Yace will answer the
last move first ...
And from the PGN Dann Corbit sent me, at least in two cases, Crafty
seems even to claim a draw by 3-fold repetition too early.
[White "Yace"]
[Black "Crafty"]
38. Rf6 gxf3 39. Rf5+ Kg6 40. Rf6+ Kg5 41. Rf5+ Kg6 42. Rf6+ Kg5
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
I might seem very stupid, but I cannot see a 3-fold repetition here.
Crafty's last move, Kg5 is only the second move of the king to g5
after the last capture (39. ... gxf3) (The message comes from Crafy,
Yace doesn't say "3-fold".)
In a later game:
Qd2 Qf1 39. Qf4 Qa1 40. Qd6 Bc8 41. a3 Qf1 42. Qf4 Qa1 43. Qd6 Qf1 44. Qf4
Qa1 45. Qd6
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
The last irreversible move is 41. a3. After that the queen moved to
d6 only two times.
As was indicated by Mogens Larsen, the problem should be fixed by
telling winboard to not reuse the engines in a match. I use the
following switches at the command-line:
winboard /reuseFirst=false /reuseSecond=false
Best wishes,
Dieter

[Dieter Bürßner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Bürßner at 13 June 2000 11:47:09:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Pete Galati at 13 June 2000 00:37:41:

Also, if I want to play a second game against Yace, I have to restart
Winboard, or else Yace won't use it's opening book on the second game.

Can you please send me a log from Yace and a winboard.deb (possibly zipped)
when this happens. Yace always uses the book here after new (unless there
is a line use_book off in yace.ini)
Regards,
Dieter

[Gábor Szõts]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gábor Szõts at 13 June 2000 13:02:00:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Dieter Bürßner at 13 June 2000 11:40:20:

And from the PGN Dann Corbit sent me, at least in two cases, Crafty
seems even to claim a draw by 3-fold repetition too early.
[White "Yace"]
[Black "Crafty"]
38. Rf6 gxf3 39. Rf5+ Kg6 40. Rf6+ Kg5 41. Rf5+ Kg6 42. Rf6+ Kg5
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
I might seem very stupid, but I cannot see a 3-fold repetition here.
Crafty's last move, Kg5 is only the second move of the king to g5
after the last capture (39. ... gxf3) (The message comes from Crafy,
Yace doesn't say "3-fold".)
In a later game:
Qd2 Qf1 39. Qf4 Qa1 40. Qd6 Bc8 41. a3 Qf1 42. Qf4 Qa1 43. Qd6 Qf1 44. Qf4
Qa1 45. Qd6
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
The last irreversible move is 41. a3. After that the queen moved to
d6 only two times.

I guess the black king had been standing on g5 at the time the 38...gxf3 capture was made. Then, it is 3-fold repetition, since the white rook is standing on f6, the black king on g5, and it is white to move. It is not the moves but the position that counts.
The same applies here, if, when 41. a3 was made, the white queen was standing on d6, while the black on a1.
Best regards,
Gábor

[Pete Galati]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Pete Galati at 13 June 2000 18:37:29:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Dieter Bürßner at 13 June 2000 11:47:09:

Also, if I want to play a second game against Yace, I have to restart
Winboard, or else Yace won't use it's opening book on the second game.

Can you please send me a log from Yace and a winboard.deb (possibly zipped)
when this happens. Yace always uses the book here after new (unless there
is a line use_book off in yace.ini)
Regards,
Dieter

Ok, it is on it's way. No, there is no line like use_book off in the ini file.
Thanks.
Pete

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 13 June 2000 20:23:02:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Gábor Szõts at 13 June 2000 13:02:00:

And from the PGN Dann Corbit sent me, at least in two cases, Crafty
seems even to claim a draw by 3-fold repetition too early.
[White "Yace"]
[Black "Crafty"]
38. Rf6 gxf3 39. Rf5+ Kg6 40. Rf6+ Kg5 41. Rf5+ Kg6 42. Rf6+ Kg5
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
I might seem very stupid, but I cannot see a 3-fold repetition here.
Crafty's last move, Kg5 is only the second move of the king to g5
after the last capture (39. ... gxf3) (The message comes from Crafy,
Yace doesn't say "3-fold".)
In a later game:
Qd2 Qf1 39. Qf4 Qa1 40. Qd6 Bc8 41. a3 Qf1 42. Qf4 Qa1 43. Qd6 Qf1 44. Qf4
Qa1 45. Qd6
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
The last irreversible move is 41. a3. After that the queen moved to
d6 only two times.

I guess the black king had been standing on g5 at the time the 38...gxf3 capture was made. Then, it is 3-fold repetition, since the white rook is standing on f6, the black king on g5, and it is white to move. It is not the moves but the position that counts.
The same applies here, if, when 41. a3 was made, the white queen was standing on d6, while the black on a1.

To be concrete, in this game:
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DCORBIT"]
[Date "2000.06.08"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Crafty"]
[Black "Yace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C16"]
[Opening "French"]
[Variation "Winawer, advance variation"]
[TimeControl "3600"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 b6 5. Qg4 Bf8 6. Bg5 Qd7 7. O-O-O Nc6 8.
Nf3 Bb7 9. Qh5 Nge7 10. Bd3 h6 11. Be3 g6 12. Qh4 Nb4 13. Qf6 Nxd3+ 14.
cxd3 Rg8 15. Qh4 Nf5 16. Qf4 g5 17. Qg4 Nxe3 18. fxe3 O-O-O 19. h4 Be7 20.
hxg5 Bxg5 21. Nxg5 Rxg5 22. Qf3 Rg6 23. Rdf1 Ba6 24. Qe2 Rdg8 25. Rf2 Qe7
26. Rhf1 R8g7 27. Kb1 Rg3 28. Nd1 Qe8 29. Nc3 Qg8 30. Rg1 R7g4 31. Kc2 c5
32. dxc5 bxc5 33. Qe1 Qg6 34. Qd2 Rd4 35. Kc1 Rxd3 36. Qc2 Rg4 37. e4 dxe4
38. Qa4 Kb7 39. Qb3+ Ka8 40. Qa4 Kb7 41. Qb3+ Kc7 42. Qa3 Kb7 43. Qb3+ {
Drawn by 3-fold repetition } 1/2-1/2
This exact position is repeated 3 times:
8/pk3p2/b3p1qp/2p1P3/4p1r1/1QNr4/PP3RP1/2K3R1 b - -
8/pk3p2/b3p1qp/2p1P3/4p1r1/1QNr4/PP3RP1/2K3R1 b - -
8/pk3p2/b3p1qp/2p1P3/4p1r1/1QNr4/PP3RP1/2K3R1 b - -
(For instance)


My FTP site

[Dieter Bürßner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Bürßner at 14 June 2000 13:37:02:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Gábor Szõts at 13 June 2000 13:02:00:

And from the PGN Dann Corbit sent me, at least in two cases, Crafty
seems even to claim a draw by 3-fold repetition too early.
[White "Yace"]
[Black "Crafty"]
38. Rf6 gxf3 39. Rf5+ Kg6 40. Rf6+ Kg5 41. Rf5+ Kg6 42. Rf6+ Kg5
{Drawn by 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
I might seem very stupid, but I cannot see a 3-fold repetition here.
Crafty's last move, Kg5 is only the second move of the king to g5
after the last capture (39. ... gxf3) (The message comes from Crafy,
Yace doesn't say "3-fold".)

I guess the black king had been standing on g5 at the time the 38...gxf3 capture was made. Then, it is 3-fold repetition, since the white rook is standing on f6, the black king on g5, and it is white to move. It is not the moves but the position that counts.

You are correct, the black king was at g5. But even then, crafty didn't
see a 3-fold repetition, when it was at the move, only after the move.
My understanding was, that now white can claim a draw at move 43 (or
make another move, that doesn't yield a repetition, or move 43. Rf5+
again, then crafty sees the 3-fold repetition and can claim a draw.)
Is my understanding wrong?
Does anybody have a link to offical chess rules?
Regards,
Dieter

[Gábor Szõts]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gábor Szõts at 14 June 2000 15:07:02:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Yace oddities following a draw geschrieben von: / posted by: Dieter Bürßner at 14 June 2000 13:37:02:

Does anybody have a link to offical chess rules?

Here is the relevant part of the FIDE laws:

9.2. The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player
having the move, when the same position, for at least the
third time (not necessarily by repetition of moves)
(a) is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his
scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make
this move, or
(b) has just appeared.
Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the
same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour
occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the
pieces of both players are the same.
Positions are not the same if a pawn could have been captured
en passant or if the right to castle immediately or in the
future has been changed.

I think Crafty is right to claim a draw on (a). Since he is unable to summon the arbiter and say 'I am going to make this and this move', he simply sends ('writes on his scoresheet') the move by which 3-fold repetition is achieved.

On the 50 move rule (in case you'd need it) FIDE laws say:

9.3. The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player
having the move, if
(a) he writes on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter
his intention to make a move which shall result in the last
50 moves having been made by each player without the movement
of any pawn and without the capture of any piece, or
(b) the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each
player without the movement of any pawn and without the
capture of any piece.

It's very similar.

Best regards,
Gábor

[Dieter Buerssner]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dieter Buerssner at 14 June 2000 17:46:09:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Rules for 3-fold repetition geschrieben von: / posted by: Gábor Szõts at 14 June 2000 15:07:02:
Thanks, for posting the rules. I think I have found the bug and solved the
problem.
Regards,
Dieter